Eternity, timelessness, never ending time and prayer

Is God timeless, or everlasting? Or, is God to be seen as someone who stands outside of time, or someone who interacts in time while not bound by its limitations?

Traditionally, God is seen as timeless, that is, God stands outside of time. In the sense that there cannot be any change in God, i.e. God is immutable, God in His essence must be timeless. But if we just say that God is timeless, and continue no further than that, such would pose the problem of how God can interact with people. Something that is outside of time, if it does not come into time, cannot interact with things in time. After all, interaction in time requires time to be shared between the subject and the object of an interaction, and a timeless being is unable to "share time."

It should come as no surprise when certain Baptist theologians in England in the 18th century decided to attempt consistency between their doctrine of God and their understanding of God's decrees. We call these theologians Hyper-Calvinists. Although it can be debated whether John Gill was a Hyper-Calvinist, what is common between any high Calvinist and the hyper-Calvinists of that era is their immenantization of God's decree. For since God is simple, God's will is one, and God is timeless, therefore God's decree must be ever present and ever true at all times. God decrees to justify the elect, therefore justification of the elect must be eternal as God's decree is eternal. One can call that kind of reasoning "Rationalism" if we so desire, but that tells us nothing about the path of reasoning the hyper-Calvinists take to reach the doctrine of eternal justification.

The decision to immenantize God's decree comes from viewing God as solely timeless, and then trying to resolve the tension between God's timelessness and God's decree which seems to be progressively executed, with the tension solved by denying the progressive execution of God's decree. Of course, one could say that their problem is trying to resolve a tension that should not be resolved, but my point in giving this example is to show that seeing God as merely timeless is not without its potential problems.

A greater problem for the issue of timelessness comes, ironically, in practice. Specifically, it concerns the doctrine of prayer. What exactly happens when we believers pray? If we say God hears our prayers and answers then, that implies that God interacts with us and works in time. But a timeless being cannot do that. A timeless being can institute "timed acts" to happen at best, so we can say that God through foreknowledge knows what and when I will pray and thus He instituted an act X to occur time Y after my prayer to give the illusion of an interaction. But this is not genuine personal interaction, but rather more akin to an automated scripted response, where a computer is told what to do and what responses to give when a certain command line or request is relayed to the system. Does the one true God who is portrayed in Scripture as being involved with His people and delighting in them sound like an automated response script to you? I hope not! But this is probably the best idea of God's "interactions" if God is indeed timeless in every respect.

If God in all three persons interact in time with us His creatures, then all three persons of the Trinity must interact in time, although they are certainly not bound to the limitations of time. It is only when we see God as interacting in time that the idea of prayer as being that of a creaturely petition to God in a genuine covenantal interaction makes any sense. But if God interacts in time, then we must say that God in His acts is not timeless. Rather, "eternity" in this case means "everlasting." God's works, which is to say God ad extra, is not timeless but rather everlasting.

Since God in His work is everlasting, that means that we can speak of "eternity past" and "eternity future." We can speak of the persons of the Trinity in a dynamic fashion, and thus the eternal Covenant of Redemption is constituted not in a timeless "now," but in the "eternal time" before time actually begun. While we must always maintain that God is outside of time in His essence, we must maintain that God in His works is situated in "eternal time," which is to say "time" as a series of progressions rather than created time t, the 4th dimension in space-time physics.

We must remember that the overwhelming imperative for this argument is to preserve the reality of prayer and real actual communion with God. These things are to be non-negotiable realities of the Christian faith, and any theology that cannot account for them is to be rejected immediately. If one were to preserve timelessness as being not only pertaining to God in His essence but to the persons of the Godhead, then the onus is on that party to tell us how prayer can be real if the persons of the Trinity are all timeless persons. In my opinion, it can never work, but I would certainly be interested in anyone who wants to attempt such a case!

2-Kingdoms, and prayers for authorities

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. (1 Tim. 2:1-2)

In the church's corporate worship, we ought to pray for various concerns — for the local church's own need, for the needs of the broader church, for the lost, and for the good of society and the government. It is with regards to the latter that the issue of confusion of Church and State might arise. After all, the Church is to be in the world but not of the world. How are we to pray for any country without trying to co-opt God for earthly and sometimes nationalistic agendas? Both sides in the American Civil War thought God was on their side, and the Battle Hymn of the Republic is a "patriotic hymn" for such an occasion. In the American context, how should one pray for the country without trying to sound like the "Republican or Democratic party at prayer"? Should one pray for military success and thus the "successful bombing and killing" of America's enemies as if they were God's enemies?

It is here that I think the 2-Kingdoms theory and the spirituality of the church helps. The Church's concerns are to be heavenly, not earthly. Furthermore, God is not American. God does not treat America differently from any other nation, or Singapore for that matter - all equally insignificant, all equally dispensable. All countries exist as God wishes, and cease to exist once He decided they have finished their part to play in history. God does not care about "human rights" so called; He does whatever He pleases, regardless of what autonomous Man thinks or schemes. If God decides to destroy America or Singapore tomorrow, nothing anyone can do will alter the fact — that's how insignificant we humans are.

The Church in any country is always a heavenly creature. While her members are citizens of various countries, the Church should not be tied to any country. The Church's obligation to pray for leaders and authorities does not change regardless of what government or what conqueror (in times of war) is in power, and therefore we do not adopt the particular agendas of countries, nations and states.

Prayers for authorities focuses thus on requests for freedom and absence of persecution from authorities, for general human flourishing, and for the government to uphold God's moral law, which anyone from any country can pray without taking sides on issues of real-politics. One does not have to be a citizen of a country to pray that the government would uphold the moral law of God, for all countries everywhere ought to do the same. The moral law stands over all nations, and God will punish those who violate His law, nations as well as individuals. The country that celebrates wickedness will be judged, and God does NOT respect the "rights" of those celebrating sin.

The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together,
against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying,
“Let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us.”
He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision. (Ps. 2:2-4)

2-Kingdoms theory allows both citizens and non-citizens together to pray for those in authority. A foreigner can pray for the good of the host nation, for Christians ought not to be nationalistic and seek only the good of their own countries. We ought to pray for the government to have the fear of God and uphold the moral law of God, to rule justly and fairly for the good of all, especially for the people God has temporarily placed under them, which is our civic duty. And through all these, may the peace that comes from governments that uphold justice serve the mission of the church, so that many will be reached for Christ and His Gospel.

The problem of identificational repentance

Then I turned my face to the Lord God, seeking him by prayer and pleas for mercy with fasting and sackcloth and ashes. I prayed to the LORD my God and made confession, saying, “O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, we have sinned and done wrong and acted wickedly and rebelled, turning aside from your commandments and rules. We have not listened to your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land. (Dan. 9:3-6)

The teaching of identificational repentance (not to be confused with corporate repentance during Lord's Day service) states that one identifies with the group one is part of, take upon oneself the corporate sins of that group, and repent on the group's behalf for these corporate sins. One of the proof texts for this teaching is found in the narrative of Daniel 9, where the prophet Daniel repented of Israel's sins, which he himself as a righteous person did not commit.

Now, I have no idea where this teaching come from, except that I was introduced to it through the Third Wave Charismatic movement (part of their prayer and intercessory warfare model, e.g. Cindy Jacobs). From the Daniel 9 passage, the context seems to be repentance of sins committed against God (vertical) on behalf of the covenant community (ecclesial, not an ethnicity), so it seems to me suspect to use it for horizontal (human-to-human) sins.

What is really strange about this identificational repentance model is what happens when one is a member of both "camps." For example, who exactly should a black PCA minister ask forgiveness from if we are talking about racism? Which group is he in? While certainly in some sense identificational repentance seems reasonable, e.g. the German churches asking forgiveness for the Holocaust, most times this whole teaching sounds really suspect. I get it that if you are part of a group that has sinned, one might repent on behalf of the group. But beyond the immediate sins, how far should we go in "identifying" with groups to confess their sins?

Articles like these on Ref21 therefore really irritate me. Such smacks to me of assuaging white guilt rather than solving racism. Speaking of which, how often must a group of people apologize before everyone can move on? As for dealing with racism explicit or implicit, why the continual dichotomy as if only whites and African-Americans are present? What about the various Asian groups? Or is Sean Lucas only interested in affirmative action just to *prove* he is not racist (and so practice reverse racism in the process)?

Because of the Third Wave context in which this doctrine was introduced to me, I am rather antipathic to it. I will certainly look more into it as the need arises, yet it already seems from a cursory look at Daniel 9 that it does not seem to teach this doctrine of identificational repentance. The ways this teaching has been utilized so far does not endear me to it, and all the more examples of such repentance are given and seen.

Misquoted verses: Compiled article

I have just created and uploaded the compiled article containing all the exegesis of the misquoted verses onto my website. It can be found here.

Misquoted verses: 2 Chron. 7:14

if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land (2 Chron. 7:14)

In teachings on the topic of prayer and intercession, the verse 2 Chron. 7:14 is often quoted as a proof text. From the text, it has been taught that if we as Christians (i) humble ourselves, (ii) pray, (iii), seek God's face, and (iv) turn from our wicked ways, then God will (1) hear us, (2) forgive our sins, and (3) "heal our land". Coming from a Third-wave charismatic background, I was taught to do these 4 steps especially during major prayer and fasting events, with the unspoken assumption that doing so would ensure that our prayers would somehow be more effectual and pleasing to God. The third promise of the healing of the land is furthermore claimed over our nation especially in the 40 days of prayer event leading up to National Day, in which we were to pray for revival to come upon our country, with some fanciful prophecies being prophesied during that time period even.

Nearly a decade later, I have the opportunity to revisit this verse. Does this verse actually teaches such principles of prayer?

As a Covenantal Theologian, it is my belief that the principles taught in the Old Testament are in some manner applicable to us today, since Israel is the Church in the Old Testament. 2 Chron. 7:14 is situated in God's promise to Solomon after his prayer to God in his dedication of the temple, and it is in this context that we must interpret this verse. Being God's promise to King Solomon under the Old Testament era, the conditions and promises are to be interpreted in a different manner in this Gospel age, which imply that their application is spiritual, for the Church rather than for some nation or territory. The conditions and promises are centered on the church and Christians in the church, not even Christianized nations per se. Therefore, to use 2 Chron. 7:14 as a proof-text to pray for the nation is not in line with the teaching of God's Word in this regard. The only way it could be "literally" physically applied in such manner is if one were to believe in some form of Israelism or one is a Old Covenant restoring Judaizer.

What then does 2 Chron. 7:14 actually teach? 2 Chron. 7:14 is a promise to the Church that lays down the general principles that God requires in prayer: that we should (i) humble ourselves, (ii) pray, (iii), seek God's face, and (iv) turn from our wicked ways, following which God has promised that He would (1) hear us, (2) forgive our sins, and (3) "heal our land". God will most definitely hear us, but hearing does not necessarily mean saying yes to us. After all, God is sovereign and His sovereign will will be done. The idea that having longer and more fervent prayers would make the prayer more efficacious and pleasing to God is an act of sorcery — ex opere operato. We must remember that God in Ez. 14:12-20 has said that he will not answer yes to the prayers and intercession of even the three most righteous persons in history when he has decided to punish Judah for her heinous sins, so to think that our prayers can manipulate God is unbiblical. God does sometimes ordain that certain prayers be answered after perseverance in prayer (Lk. 18:1-8), but such prayers is a time of pleading before God, not attempts to "blackmail" God because of the amount of time we have spent in prayer.

The promise of forgiveness of sin in this Gospel age (and even in the Old Testament era) was never to be taken to mean sins being forgiven through the instrumentality of prayer. Rather, it must be interpreted in the same way as the principle of forgiveness of sins in 1 Jn. 1:9, which is to say an experience of an established reality proving the genuineness of that same reality. In simpler terms, what this means is that true born-again Christians who have their sins forgiven will by nature confess their sins and pray to God in so doing. Such activities confirm that the ones practicing them have their sins forgiven, and the Holy Spirit uses such activities to bring peace and the sense of forgiveness within their hearts.

The third promise of the "healing of the land" is to be taken spiritually in the sense of spiritual healing of the individual and of the church. Prayer and fasting in this verse therefore profits the individual believer and the Body of Christ. As the Body of Christ comes together to pray, she is the one being edified first and foremost.

This brings us to the question: Does that mean that we shouldn't intercede for the nations and for all who are outside the Church? By no means! Such however cannot claim 2 Chron. 7:14 as a proof-text, but rather texts such as Gen. 18:23-33 and 1 Tim. 2:1-4. Prayers for nations etc if they are to be biblical must be for God's mercy and withholding of deserved judgment, for God to save people (not nations, but individual persons) in the nations out of darkness into His glorious light, and for God to grant peace so that the Gospel ministry may not be hindered. In other words, these should be the focus of our prayers if they are to be biblical; Gospel-centered prayers. If we pray for other issues such as the material prosperity of our nation and other such stuff not instructed in the Scriptures, then we are not praying according to Scripture. God may very well choose to answer them with a yes answer, but he is certainly not obliged to and such is not praying even according to God's decretal will and are therefore unbiblical.

In conclusion, let us learn the proper interpretation and application of 2 Chron. 7:14. May we not use it therefore for so-called "national intercession", much less invoking the verse to ask for material prosperity of a nation at the expense of asking God to grant repentance and faith to people in the nation. Amen.

Paul Washer on Worthless Prayer Meetings

Here is a 6 minute clip fom Paul Washer on the topic of Worthless Prayer Meetings. Sad to say, I DO know of such "prayer meetings". May our Lord grant us repentance if we have had such gossip sessions "prayer meetings" and let us instead spend the time on our kness in prayer. Amen.

On the efficaciousness of prayer — Does prayer operates ex opere operato?

Some time ago, I posted a quote I have gotten from Pastor Justin Neale's blog on the topic of prayer by A.W. Tozer. I have posted this above the post warning of the heretic and blasphemer revivalist Todd Bentley, which led my friend Rick Ianniello to mistook that this quote was meant for Todd Bentley, while actually I was posting that so as to 'bookmark' the quote for later use. And this use is now!

The Global Day of Apostasy Prayer had came and gone for the year 2008. I was rather busy at that time so I just managed to prepare a very brief summary of my objections to that event and mass-mail my friends about the event. What happened precipitated this entire post and the article that I will link to later.

A friend of mine read it and passed it over to his AoG pastor in Singapore who took part in the event, who replied to my brief email. In characteristic fashion, I treated the whole issue as an opportunity to correct the errors present in what the pastor says in love. The reply however did not see the light of day as my friend wasn't that keen to continue the exchange, and I decided not to pursue the issue out of respect for my friend, though I was not too happy with the way it is handled. I do not wish to lose a friend though, so I would just let it pass since this is not a doctrinal issue. [Contrary to what some people may believe, I DO have feelings]

That however does not mean that error can be allowed to stand. There is in particular one error which I find very pernicious and persistent within the Charismatic/ Neo-Apostolic movement which I think should be addressed. It is the error of treating prayer as being effective in and of itself, and that prayer is "the key to change the world". In other words, keeping in mind the context and decoding the phrase, what they are saying is that prayer changes the world because of the prayer of the saints. As it can be seen, this looks eerily similar to the Word-faith occultic assertion of faith as a force but unless proven otherwise it would not be stated as such. Rather, I would use the very appropriate Latin phrase Ex opere operato to describe such a view.

It is in answer to this view that I have prepared an article to answer this question. What does the Scriptures teaches about efficaciousness of prayer? Does prayer operates Ex Opere Operato?

Just some definitions:

Efficaciousness (n) is best defined here as the state/ power of being able to bring about a desired amount of an effect.

Efficacy (n): ability to bring about desired amount of an effect

Efficacious (adj): able to bring about desired amount of an effect)

These prayers make Satan rejoice, not tremble

Have you noticed how much praying for revival has been going on of late – and how little revival has resulted? I believe the problem is that we have been trying to substitute praying for obeying, and it simply will not work. To pray for revival while ignoring the plain precept laid down in Scripture is to waste a lot of words and get nothing for our trouble. Prayer will become effective when we stop using it as a substitute for obedience.”

- A. W. Tozer

[HT: Justin Nale]