OK, I'm fed up totally with Rick Warren and his purpose driven paradigm! In fact, I am totally sick of this heretic coming into the Church of Jesus Christ and misleading her, and for that, I am going to come out with a position paper on Rick Warren and the Purpose Driven paradigm soon which I hope many people and churches would endorse. Read this for starters on the issue which started it all (Rick Warren's 'state' visit to the terrorist nation Syria), this to see how Warren tried to whitewash his error, this to see the politics behind the issue, and here are Ingrid Schlueter's comments on the issue.
Oh, and regarding Warren's flaunt of his high-level links with the power brokers in society, and especially of his link with the anti-Christian organization called the Council of Foreign Relations (CFR), read this article here.
From these articles, we can see that Warren seems to be involved with the anti-Christian liberal leftist organization CFR which promotes a one-world government. Given his preference for inclusivism which I have documented before, it seems that Rick Warren will be involved in bringing about the one-world religion which precipitates the revealing of the Antichrist himself! Of course, the fact that he is meddling in politics is cause for concern, especially since last I heard, Rick Warren's title is not Secretory of State Rick Warren.
With this, I think there is sufficient evidence that Rick Warren qualifies for the title of 'heretic'!
Not sure if anyone would be interested in discussing this...
In light of your criticism of Rick Warren, how should a Christian live in relation to the government/politics?
don't quote me on this answer, cause my views are still in a flux on this issue to a certain extent. For me, deriving from the principle of seperation between Church and State, churches as institutions should not meddle in governmental affairs, which would definitely include pastors in their official capacity. And definitely, they should not be running around thinking that they can be diplomats acting on behalf of a segment of their society and trying to bring peace; in other words, don't meddle in foreign affairs when you are not given the authority to do so.
However, Chrisitians should be involved in politics as individuals. They should not claim neutrality (for the simple reason that NO ONE is neutral when it comes to matters of worldview), and they should seek to impose basic morality on the culture they live in through proper means in love. For example, Christians in democracies should use their voting rights to vote based on biblical principles. Christian politicians should behave as Christians in their polocy-making etc. EVEN if by so doing they may lose votes and/or make themselves a pariah, for the simple reason that they should be serving God first and then society second.
The reason why I asked is to query your title "Purpose Driven meddling in politics..." and content. Both sides (Rick Warren and yourself) are conditioned by the societies they live in.
Perhaps some questions for you (or anyone else) to chew on:
What does the WCF (the original version, not the American version) say about the issue of church and state?
Better still, what does the Bible say about that?
Is democracy is the Biblical pattern for government?
Do we as Christians have "voting rights"?
>'Both sides (Rick Warren and yourself) are conditioned by the societies they live in.'
Eh.... yes in a sense, no in a sense, at least for me. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that I am not the usual type of Singaporean around. I don't follow the mainstream crowd and chase after the material stuff. During the recent election, I voted based on values, NOT based on which party can cough out the best 'bribes' or give the best material jobs and rewards.
>'What does the WCF (the original version, not the American version) say about the issue of church and state?'
Yes, I know that the WCF (and also the Belgic Confession that I hold to)does say that the state has a duty to affirm true religion and to punish heretics. However, my stand is that that was a legacy from the Roman church-state.
>'Better still, what does the Bible say about that?'
I'll reply later. What about you? What do you think?
>'Is democracy is the Biblical pattern for government?'
Not exactly. I don't think you can justify any single political system from the Bible. If I'm not wrong, Sir Windston Churchhill said that democracy is the worst political system, except for the others which are worse than it.
>'Do we as Christians have "voting rights"?''
If we are given the right to contribute to our societal well-being through means such as voting, should we not do so?
Hi Jenson and Daniel.
“Voting right” is a political term, and is invested to us via the alleged democracy. I agree with Daniel that individual Christians should contribute to society in ways which help to “redeem the time.” For example, a Christian teacher should not teach evolution in school, and promote an atheistic system of thought. Should we, then, follow the school board’s mandate that the teacher ought to teach evolution as the only theory of origin? I think not. We submit to the alleged democracy as long as the alleged democracy does not become a “demonic-cracy”. (On voting, cf. http://www.modernreformation.org/tocv13i5.htm)
The Reformed confessions have apparently changed its position from the “Anglican” position to its present “American” formulae (not exactly correct though). Perhaps the works of Meredith Kline and John Frame (two opposite system of thoughts) comes in handy in this discussion. Frame’s view is not reconstructionism, but seems to be a reasonable middle of the road stance. Kline’s view is what I adhere to.
See this article by Michael Horton (by the way, Horton is also a Klinian):
If we were to follow democracy, we should have voted for Saul to be King of Israel! Or do we want a theocracy (or rather, should we)?
Perhaps it’s time for us to dig deeper into God’s Word.
There seems to be much debate over this issue, isn’t it?
"Do we as Christians have "voting rights"?
This is quite a strange question. In Singapore, voting is as obligatory as taxes (i know voting is not compulsory elsewhere).
Jesus said to give Caesar what is Caesar's; to God what is God's. To the governement, we owe them our participation in voting and so we fulfil that obligation.
Voting rights? All are each given the same vote. All can vote whoever they want. Of course Christians have voting rights.
If you are taking about biblical voting principals, we all need wisdom from the Holy Spirit.
The bible was quite silent on how to choose leaders for a governement; the closest thing i can find is Deut 17:14-19. But even that is a Christian leader.
Simply put, you won't find cooking recipes in the Bible, because God gives us the liberty to cook. But we cook what is best for our bodies and our family.
Same for voting, not as irresponsible, but as informed as possible so as to biblically benefit the society. I state an example. Given a choice to vote for someone who supports vice and someone who is against it, i vote for the latter.
So the best thing to do during voting is treat it as rendering a service to God. For even what we eat and drink, we give glory to God.
[1 Corinthians 10:31]
So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.
This command is under the context of this command:
[Matthew 22:37-38] 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
So when we vote responsibly, it is not only for ourselves, but a service to God in joyfulness and a method of loving thy neighbour.
To vote responsibly is to judge a person objectively and based on assessment of character rather than popularity. Just like we are told to know a tree by its fruits (context, false prophets). We should be able to apply it to identify liars and people of poor character.
I find this quite insightful when I start discussing politics with Singaporean or British Christians. We Singaporeans find voting a "right" and "voting is as obligatory as taxes" (in democratic societies, should voting be obligatory?). In fact, we all know what happens when we don't vote, don't we?
However, here in Britian, some of the Christians I know do not think that voting is a "right" - esp. since an 18-yr old has as much "right" as a 81-yr old pensioner! In any case, voting is not obligatory, and many cannot be bothered.
There are Christian political parties here, but with the new laws introduced - equating them with Islamic fundamentalists (go figure!), they are not making great waves here. In fact, one of their candidates is a member of my local church and he lost big time. I do admire his fighting spirit, though.
Which is why I said that we come to this type of discussion "conditioned by the societies we live in". (that will incl. Rick Warren or whoever...)
Eh well... Jenson,
perhaps a good question to consider: If there is an election and someone likie Hitler is running for office (in a democracy), is it obligatory for Christians to use their 'voting rights' to attempt to stop him from being in office?
I would expect most to vote "based on values, NOT based on which party can cough out the best 'bribes' or give the best material jobs and rewards." Problem is, when one uses the word "values", values fluctuates - virtues don't.
But that is another post altogether... I think I will stop there. All the best with your exams.
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