Sunday, April 12, 2009

Quotable Quotes: The Adequacy of Words

In my on-going research into New Evangelical Calvinism, I stumbled onto a quote from a book I had lying on my bookshelf for some time, proving that there is nothing new under the sun.

Still more significant in undermining the evangelical position on Scripture has been the liberal argument that divine truth cannot be precisely stated in words. Given all the limitations of human vocabulary, it is said, revelation cannot exist in 'propositional form'. God's thoughts so transcend our capacity and language that it is a form of 'rationalism' to think that word can convey revelation inerrantly. So it is affirmed.

This is an old argument from philosophy, and it was adopted a century ago by those who wanted to retain faith in God's redemptive acts but not in the infallibility of the text of the Bible which records those acts. 'It is claimed', Douglas Johnson wrote in 1953, 'that the Bible does not provide us with definite propositions which would enable us to state formally what God has been pleased to reveal, and from which it is possible to draw up a creed.' 'No propositional revelation in Scripture' was the repeated objection raised against evangelical 'dogmatism'. Thus, at the same period, we find [Dr. Martin] Lloyd-Jones responding to the claim that 'fundamentalism cannot be true because it claims that truth can be reduced to a number of propositions'.

- Iain H. Murray, Evangelicalism Divided — A Record of Crucial Change in the Years 1950 to 2000 (Carlisle, Pennsylvania, USA: Banner of Truth Trust, 2000)

76 comments:

PuritanReformed said...

Beast FCD:

as you should know, your comment violated the rules, but I have decided to answer a part of your question.

Why do I do what I do? Because I love God; something you would never ever understand unless God through the Holy Spirit in His mercy decides to give you a new heart.

BEAST FCD said...

Erm, mate, I am pretty healthy and as far as I know I am not in a new for a heart transplant yet.

If you love to do what you love to do, then give your utmost and do it. Working in a science lab by day and masquerading as a raving, stark mad religious fundamentalist by night is enough to drive anyone nuts.

Either be a pastor, or a biologist. Try not to be both. Because evolution is fact, and Jebus doesn't like it.

Beast FCD

Munchy said...

Dear Beast FCD

Pls further define what evolution means to you for clarity:
1) Living creatures respond and adapt to their environment
2) Every living thing on earth developed from information bearing RNA that was derived from purely random processes
3) Others

My view:
1) fact
2) fantasy (point 1 being true does not imply point 2 being true)

Working in a science lab does not preclude one from religion. Many of the most brilliant and influential scientists the world has ever seen are Christians who held creationist views

BEAST FCD said...

Like? Duane Gish? (You wrote a post about him.....)

Beast FCD

PuritanReformed said...

"raving, stark mad religious fundamentalist"

When liberals like you use such bigoted words, they are not to be considered hate speech, whereas if we even so much to say that homosexuality is wrong, all the emotion-laden will be thrown at us. Hypocrisy from the Left seldom surprise me anymore...

PuritanReformed said...

Munchy:

I sincerely doubt Beast FCD has ever read one book on philosophy of science. Facts wouldn't convince him; what is needed is a demolishment of his humanism.

Munchy said...

Duane Gish? Never wrote anything about him before

Just to name a few how about:
-Johannes Kepler
-Blaise Pascal
-James Joule
-Louis Pasteur
-James Clerk Maxwell

If you are an engineering student as you claim, I am sure you will be very familiar with some of these names. There are many more.

BEAST FCD said...

"When liberals like you use such bigoted words, they are not to be considered hate speech, whereas if we even so much to say that homosexuality is wrong, all the emotion-laden will be thrown at us. Hypocrisy from the Left seldom surprise me anymore..."

Can you even NAME ONE INSTANCE whereby my words can be defined as "bigoted"? I can quote you offhand, at least hand a dozen, of bigoted statements from YOU.

You accuse me of hypocrisy? You want to start lampooning gays and at the same time claim to be the bullied and the victimized. Pray, tell me, WHERE IS THE HYPOCRISY comes from? You or me?

Oh, I expect this post to be deleted, given your narrow minded stance, but please, Daniel, if you want to challenge me, please back it up. Don't be a bloody sore loser.

Beast FCD

BEAST FCD said...

Munchy:

Try Mohr's stress and strain circles. If you ever knew torture in a Mechanics class, this will be it (Besides Laplace).

Beast FCD

PuritanReformed said...

Beast FCD:

thanks for proving my point. I have quoted the words in my comment. Either you cannot see them, or you do not think they are biogoted words. If you think they are not, you can have them. Here you are:

Beast FCD is a "raving, stark mad anti-religious fundamentalist". His "narrow minded stance" is getting on my nerves.

There you go. Go back and eat your words, unless you want to be a "bloody sore loser". BIGOT!

BEAST FCD said...

"Beast FCD is a "raving, stark mad anti-religious fundamentalist". His "narrow minded stance" is getting on my nerves."

Don't be a moron. I didn't say that.

I called you a raving, stark mad, religious fundamentalist, not an anti religious fundamentalist. GET THAT RIGHT.

And no, that is not a statement of bigotry. That is a fact.

Get that right, you loser!!!!

Oh, go ahead,delete the message. That's what you do when you lose anyway. Ha. Ha ha.

Beast FCD

BEAST FCD said...

You are no better than Fred Phelps. Both of you share a common theme: Religious bigotry.

Beast FCD

BEAST FCD said...

And it is because of people like you I quit Christianity altogether. I simply cannot fathom myself becoming one of you, full of self righteousness, bigotry and utter stupidity.

And thanks for reminding myself how lucky I am NOT TO BE A CHRISTIAN.

Beast FCD

PuritanReformed said...

To all:

Showcase exhibit of the anti-religious bigotry of the secular humanists can be seen in Beast FCD's comments. The self-righteous stench is overpowering. But what can you expect from a God-hating irrational fool (cf Ps. 14:1) anyway?

PuritanReformed said...

Of course, the fact that Beast FCD behaves like raving atheist bigots such as Der Fuhrer Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin in their abject hatred of Christianity is conveniently overlooked.

One common trait: Anti-Christian bigotry! At least Phelps (who I am no friend of) does not kill anyone, the same cannot be said of Hitler and Stalin.

PuritanReformed said...

>And it is because of people like you I quit Christianity altogether.

No, it is because you hate God and His Law. You as a creature detest the fact that you have to answer to your Creator after your death, and just like Stalin, you shake your fist and scream to the heavens and tell God: I REJECT YOU AS MY CREATOR AND LORD. Despite God's gracious gifts to you, you spit on His goodness, insult Him to His face, and would kill Him if you could do so. Nevermind that the very fact that you can continue to exist for one more second is because of His grace. Depraved sinners suppressing the knowledge of God within their hearts, rebelling against Him with all of their might, and hoping desparatey that if they will silence the messengers totally, God will disappear from the scene. Worse than ostriches putting their heads in the sand, such people will try all means to silence the messenge, yet they can never silence their conscience, which constantly accuse them of their evil and hatred of the One who gave them life in the first place.

[You can just about hear the gnashing of teeth now]

However, we have hope: that God will regenerate His own, and will change the hearts of those He has prepared for salvation, such that all of God's people who hear the Gospel will repent and turn from their evil to life in Christ. Nothing can stop the power of the Holy Spirit in changing the hearts of those He will, not even the rebellious heart of callous atheists. God calls all men to come and repent. Why will you die? Why follow the path of destruction? Recognize your sin, turn to Christ so that you may live.

Munchy said...

"Oh, I expect this post to be deleted, given your narrow minded stance, but please, Daniel, if you want to challenge me, please back it up. Don't be a bloody sore loser."

hey if you are willing to say something like this pls back it up! You've responded to my posts with mere gibberish. How can you accuse Daniel of hypocrisy when you yourself behave like that?

We Christians dont claim to be perfect, thats why we need God. And we too hope that everyone else too (including yourself) realizes that they are not perfect and need God. (Unless of course you first knew God then rejected him then that might be a bit more difficult)

Kok Seng said...

Daniel and Munchy,
Interesting reply to Beast FCD.
In the first place, why are you a Christian? It it because you fear God and his laws? Why do you want to be perfect like Jesus? Fear again or it is because you want to go to heaven after you die? But why do you want to go to heaven in the first place?

PuritanReformed said...

Kok Seng:

I am a Christian because God has revealed to me my sinfulness and wickedness, and that I as with the rest of mankind rightfully deserve hellfire. Seeing the wickedness of my own rebellion, I am broken for how despicable I have previously been in rejecting Him. He has shown me the way of salvation in Christ, that through Him only I can be saved from the just wrath of God to come, and thus I turn to Him as my Savior and my Lord, who loved me enough to die for me and save me from my sins.

Salvation is less to do with going to heaven as it is with resolving the penalty for my wickedness. THe death penalty hangs over the heads of all mankind, and this is our just reward for our wickedness. Believing in Christ means that God has shown a way for us to be saved from the death we justly deserve, and we grasp it like how a person on death row would at an opportunity to be saved from his execution.

Kok Seng said...

Thanks Daniel.
So in summary, it is something like this for your case: God showed you how bad you are and that he loves you, so that you want to be good and enjoy his love. OR ELSE God will punish and condemn you to hell (ie face the wrath of God.). So you decided not to face the wrath of God. Correct?

More generally, God says: all mankind must turn to me and love me; because I am going to destroy all mankind sooner or later. Correct?

BEAST FCD said...

Dear Munchy:

Apologies for not responding to you. I have a problem with Daniel, not you, and would like to respond to Daniel's allegations first.

Daniel:

I am not anti Christian. In fact, I am so tolerant towards Christians that I actually have great Christian friends, the kinds who wouldn't mind my atheism, and me respecting their right to belief.

I don't have a problem with your religion. I simply find it hypocritical that you use your religion as a front to sell your homophobic bigotry, and then in turn accuse people like me for being a bigot for exposing your hypocrisy.


Beast FCD

BEAST FCD said...

"Of course, the fact that Beast FCD behaves like raving atheist bigots such as Der Fuhrer Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin in their abject hatred of Christianity is conveniently overlooked."

Fatal error: The Fuhrer was a devout Catholic and Christian, not an atheist. A cursory read of Mein Kempf will reveal that in abundance.

Stalin was an atheist, that's more or less acknowledged. While he did a lot of evil stuff, his role in WWII is crucial in world history.And he certainly wasn't specifically persecuting Christians, so playing the persecution card like a dreary old wife's tale is, well, bogus.

Beast FCD

BEAST FCD said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Munchy said...

Beast FCD

You have a problem with Daniel or you have a problem with religion and evolution? Cuz in this thread, you started posting about religion and evolution, so of course you have to back that up. Otherwise your post is merely a personal attack on Daniel with no substance.

Also, cursory research will show you that Hitler was not a Christian and that the Nazis possibly had close occultic links

BEAST FCD said...

Munchy:

Evolution is about the changes within species, forged by natural selection and random mutation.

If you think Hitler is an Atheist, then you probably didn't do very well in history class: Virtually all history books of repute will acknowledge Hitler's Christian beliefs. Allegations of occult practices are mostly urban legend, fabricated by Christians who continue to turn a blind eye to the fact that Hitler was never excommunicated by the Vatican.

Beast FCD

BEAST FCD said...

I have a problem with Daniel because he accuses me of being a bigot for criticizing his bigotry, and I need to clarify the fact that I am not against his right to belief, even if I do not agree with him.

He simply needs to be taught that we can all agree to disagree without resorting to bigoted statements and intolerance.

Beast FCD

Munchy said...

Kok Seng, great questions:

- I became Christian when I was young cuz they seemed to have a good deal. A good, powerful God on their side, I wanted it too, who wouldnt? Of course my reasons are a bit different now.

- If there was any fear then it was probably of the devil more than God. But God is anti-devil, good, and more powerful than devil.

- The student follows and learns from the master, the child from his parent. I too hope to learn from my teacher, master, lord and savior.

- Christian fear of God is not abject terror but respect, awe, reverence, humility, submission.

- In heaven, sin will plague me no more, and I will get to fully enjoy God's presence. I cant wait. Similarly, heaven is not a place that will interest or endear itself to non-believers cuz they have rejected God, whilst heaven is communion with God.

- Many pple think that God is out to destroy non-Christians. Thats twisted. God is actually loving and merciful (& just, holy, righteous). Jesus is the key here to understand this. God sent Jesus in love to save us, not to condemn us. Through Jesus we see the real heart of God. God desires us to draw back to Him, much more than u can imagine.

- If we murder, and the judge sentence us to jail or hang. Is the judge evil in punishing & torturing us? Or is he being just? Its not a complete analogy, but Im trying to show the idea that we are condemned by the 'law of life' rather than the idea that God is out to condemn and punish us (and get some weird kick out of it)

Munchy said...

"Evolution is about the changes within species, forged by natural selection and random mutation." I dont think Daniel will dispute this. But an atheist viewpoint normally leads to the expansion of this statement to fantasy-like conclusions as I mentioned earlier. I cant totally blame atheists cuz they have a worldview that excludes God and have to come up with some explanation. But its deeply flawed.

Ok I think homosexuality is a sin, is this a bigoted statement? Am I a homophobe? I really dont think so, but there is a high chance that I will be classified as one for my view that homosexuality is a sin.

So, are u implying that Hitler is Christian cuz he wasnt excommunicated? I'd really like to see your "history books of repute". Do send some links to my email on this: marnchi@yahoo.com
I'd like to evaluate these sources that you draw on

Munchy said...

Well Beast, that's really just your own atheist personal interpretation of bible stories.

If you are sincerely wanting to discuss these issues you have with the bible. Daniel or myself or any decent Christian wouldnt mind doing so.

But somehow I dont think thats on your agenda. You seem more interested to just poke fun at the bible... whatever rocks your boat..

PuritanReformed said...

Kok Seng:

All humans stand condemned already. As it is written:

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (Jn. 3:17-18)

All humanity have a death sentence on their heads already, and it would be just of God to leave us to die in our sins. God does not say: "Believe in me or go to hell", but "You are already on the way to hell, but I have come so that whoever believes in me will be saved".

The problem with quite a lot of people is that they think they are such good people that they deserve heaven. However, the reality is that we are not good but evil. Justice requires that all men die and go to hell, but Christ has died so that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life (Jn. 3:16)

PuritanReformed said...

>I simply find it hypocritical that you use your religion as a front to sell your homophobic bigotry

See. Now, isn't it hypocritical that you use your humanism as a front to sell your "homophobe-phobic" bigotry? Oops, I forget, humanism has no morals at all...

Anyway, for someone who can't even defend their position philosophically (ethically, metaethically, epistmologically), you sure show your anti-Christian bigotry. Nothing is more disgusting than a self-righteous humanist pontificating of the rightness of an action and vilifying his opponents when the only rationale for the rightness of his stance is his personal opinion, of which all must bow down to the ex cathedra pronouncements of His Pontifex Beast FCD.

PuritanReformed said...

>The Fuhrer was a devout Catholic and Christian

Oh yes, I forgot. In Beast FCD's eyes, all who call themselves Christians are Christians. Somehow I doubt that he will allow a person who oppose gay "marriage" to call himself a pro-gay proponent.

Smell the duplicity? I sure do.

PuritanReformed said...

Beast FCD:

Don't bother posting your self-important promotion of your "interpretation" of God's Word. It is very revealing that you as an atheist think you know what the Bible actually says more than true Christians. What right do you have to think that yours is the correct interpretation anyway?

PuritanReformed said...

>He simply needs to be taught that we can all agree to disagree without resorting to bigoted statements and intolerance.

Why do I feel that Beast FCD have been "resorting to bigoted statements and intolerance" recently? Oh ya, I forgot, in Beast's world, "bigotry" and "intolerance" is defined by His Pontificate Beast FCD.

I sure am not buying it.

BEAST FCD said...

Daniel

I sure as hell won't buy your crap either. The feeling is mutual.

Beast FCD

BEAST FCD said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
BEAST FCD said...

"What right do you have to think that yours is the correct interpretation anyway?"

And yours?

Beast FCD

Munchy said...

"In my book, as long as you believe in Jebus and his gay highness, you are technically a Christian." I suppose by your definitions Satan is a Christian too?

Apart from calling Daniel a loser and incessantly proclaiming that you have defeated him, I have yet to see you make a single claim or argument of any substance and back it up properly.

I wonder if you've ever run your thoughts and feelings on christianity and the bible by your christian friends, and see what they think of it. You should try it, let us know how it goes

BEAST FCD said...

Munchy

Believe me, I have. Besides the vast numbers of messages he constantly deletes when he loses, I even have blog posts dissecting all his comments on his posts.

Satan. Hmm. To be frank, the only character I truly admire is Lucifer, The Prince of Darkness and the Accuser of our Brothers. He seems to be the only one who dares to openly defy a terrible tyrant and dictator cum murderer: God.

When I say "belief", it means believing in Jebus to be God, and all the necessary doctrines, etc He died for his sins, etc etc.



Beast FCD

Munchy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Munchy said...

Beast

Your blog posts against Daniel are not much better than your comments. A lot of insults mostly, not a lot of meaningful content. But I do grant that at least you try harder to make an argument in your posts (even though I disagree with them)

Yes, the point I was actually trying to make is that to qualify as a real Christian necessities belief in the Christian doctrines as well. Anyone can call themselves Christians, or claim they believe in Jesus. But if they dont believe or arent aware of the doctrines I think that hardly qualifies them. Therefore pple like Satan and Hitler do not qualify as Christians (unless of course u can prove to me otherwise)

Finally, I dont understand how you can truly admire Satan. How do you admire someone who you dont believe exists. You are an atheist right, so how can you believe in Satan. You might as well call yourself a Satanist that would make more sense

(I also find it strange you would refer to Satan in a Christian manner - as the accuser of our brothers)

quirK said...

Daniel, for your encouragement:

John 15:18

Matthew 5:44

When humans throw their hands up in exasperation at stark unbelief, it will soon be time for God Himself to act.

BEAST FCD said...

Munchy

The Hebrews refer to Satan as, amongst other titles, "The Prince of Darkness", "The Son of Dawn" and the "Accuser of Our Brothers".

As for Satan, I refer to him from a literature and not a literal point of view. The whole biblical story relies on the concept of evil, personified by Lucifer himself, in order to make the whole tale credible, and even then the whole bible doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.

Beast FCD

PuritanReformed said...

Beast FCD:

Blog rule number 1 states:

1) No vulgarities, sexual or other forms of innuendo, character assasination or threats allowed. Civilized discourse please.

Insulting Jesus is considered within rule number 1, especially when you do so mockingly. Don't claim censorship when you cannot play by the rules of the game. Do note I haven't invoke rule number 3 yet.

PuritanReformed said...

quirK:

Thanks for the encouragement. I am still learning how to apply Prov. 26:4-5 in such situations.

PuritanReformed said...

>"What right do you have to think that yours is the correct interpretation anyway?"
>And yours?

Mine is the objective transcendent Word of God, whereas yours is your mere subjective personal opinion. I don't think it takes a genius to figure out who to trust.

BEAST FCD said...

"Mine is the objective transcendent Word of God, whereas yours is your mere subjective personal opinion. I don't think it takes a genius to figure out who to trust."

Wrong. Your opinion holds sway to hold you interpret a book written by uneducated buffoons who taught they were inspired by God to write such drivel, and you, in turn, think that you are inspired by a deity whom you think holds you in high esteem.

In the end, it all boils down to opinions, and if yours have no direct affinity to mankind then it wouldn't really matter. Secular humanism wins because it is designed specifically with mere mortals in mind.

Beast FCD

PuritanReformed said...

>Your opinion holds sway to hold you interpret a book written by uneducated buffoons who taught they were inspired by God to write such drivel

That is YOUR OPINION, not fact. Get over it, Your Pontificate!

>Secular humanism wins because it is designed specifically with mere mortals in mind.

That is YOUR OPINION, which is not held to by the majority of people in this world even. Less than 10% of the world are atheists, in case you forget.

BEAST FCD said...

"That is YOUR OPINION, which is not held to by the majority of people in this world even. Less than 10% of the world are atheists, in case you forget."

Lest you forget, one does not have to be an atheist to be a secular humanist.

Will you help a person who falls down while running? Will you lend a hand to an old lady who is carrying a bagful of plastic bags? That is humanism for you. It is inane in everyone, to help his or her fellow man, irregardless of gods or no gods.

Beast FCD

BEAST FCD said...

">Your opinion holds sway to hold you interpret a book written by uneducated buffoons who taught they were inspired by God to write such drivel

That is YOUR OPINION, not fact. Get over it, Your Pontificate!"

Like I said, we all have our opinions. We can all agree to disagree, and that makes neither of us a Pope.

To be a pope, you have to be utterly evil. I surely have no inspiration to be a pope.

Beast FCD

PuritanReformed said...

>Will you help a person who falls down while running? Will you lend a hand to an old lady who is carrying a bagful of plastic bags? That is humanism for you.

That is also YOUR opinion of what humanism is, which is false. Let me quote from the official Secular Humanist paper, The Humanist Manifesto II:

Humanism is an ethical process through which we all can move, above and beyond the divisive particulars, heroic personalities, dogmatic creeds, and ritual customs of past religions or their mere negation.

And under the section of Ethics:

Happiness and the creative realization of human needs and desires, individually and in shared enjoyment, are continuous themes of humanism.


I don't see anything there about helping others regardless of religion. Face it: you do not even understand the philosophy you profess to believe in, or you are purepsefully being deceitful.

PuritanReformed said...

Here is Humanism as the Humanists define it: (http://www.americanhumanist.org/who_we_are/about_humanism/What_is_Humanism)

1) Humanism is one of those philosophies for people who think for themselves. There is no area of thought that a Humanist is afraid to challenge and explore.

Note: "No area of thought" does not apply to Humanism itself.

2) Humanism is a philosophy focused upon human means for comprehending reality. Humanists make no claims to possess or have access to supposed transcendent knowledge.

Note: EXCEPT the claim to possess the absolute knowledge that those who claim to possess them are wtong.

3) Humanism is a philosophy of reason and science in the pursuit of knowledge. Therefore, when it comes to the question of the most valid means for acquiring knowledge of the world, Humanists reject arbitrary faith, authority, revelation, and altered states of consciousness.

Note: EXCEPT when that faith, authority and revelation comes from humanists.

4) Humanism is a philosophy of imagination. Humanists recognize that intuitive feelings, hunches, speculation, flashes of inspiration, emotion, altered states of consciousness, and even religious experience, while not valid means to acquire knowledge, remain useful sources of ideas that can lead us to new ways of looking at the world. These ideas, after they have been assessed rationally for their usefulness, can then be put to work, often as alternative approaches for solving problems.

5) Humanism is a philosophy for the here and now. Humanists regard human values as making sense only in the context of human life rather than in the promise of a supposed life after death.

6) Humanism is a philosophy of compassion. Humanist ethics is solely concerned with meeting human needs and answering human problems-for both the individual and society-and devotes no attention to the satisfaction of the desires of supposed theological entities.

7) Humanism is a realistic philosophy. Humanists recognize the existence of moral dilemmas and the need for careful consideration of immediate and future consequences in moral decision making.

8) Humanism is in tune with the science of today. Humanists therefore recognize that we live in a natural universe of great size and age, that we evolved on this planet over a long period of time, that there is no compelling evidence for a separable "soul," and that human beings have certain built-in needs that effectively form the basis for any human-oriented value system.

9) Humanism is in tune with today's enlightened social thought. Humanists are committed to civil liberties, human rights, church-state separation, the extension of participatory democracy not only in government but in the workplace and education, an expansion of global consciousness and exchange of products and ideas internationally, and an open-ended approach to solving social problems, an approach that allows for the testing of new alternatives.

10) Humanism is in tune with new technological developments. Humanists are willing to take part in emerging scientific and technological discoveries in order to exercise their moral influence on these revolutions as they come about, especially in the interest of protecting the environment.

11) Humanism is, in sum, a philosophy for those in love with life. Humanists take responsibility for their own lives and relish the adventure of being part of new discoveries, seeking new knowledge, exploring new options. Instead of finding solace in prefabricated answers to the great questions of life, humanists enjoy the open-endedness of a quest and the freedom of discovery that this entails.

Note: This discovery seldom leads them to challenge Humanism. There the "open-endedness" ends.

BEAST FCD said...

"Happiness and the creative realization of human needs and desires, individually and in shared enjoyment, are continuous themes of humanism."

Isn't that the same thing? Spreading joy, helping people, etc, without fear of the supernatural?

Beast FCD

BEAST FCD said...

That is what makes humanism beautiful, and religious doctrines ugly and irrelevant.

Beast FCD

BEAST FCD said...

To be humane, that's the central theme of secular humanism. Humans first. Not Gods.

Beast FCD

PuritanReformed said...

>Isn't that the same thing?

No, you claim that Humanism is when "you help a person who falls down while running". Or "lend[ing] a hand to an old lady who is carrying a bagful of plastic bags?". That can be done out of religious motivation, so it is not the same.

PuritanReformed said...

Let's put this clearly: You claim that the only way to be humane is to be a humanist. I deny that.

BEAST FCD said...

"No, you claim that Humanism is when "you help a person who falls down while running". Or "lend[ing] a hand to an old lady who is carrying a bagful of plastic bags?". That can be done out of religious motivation, so it is not the same."

"It doesn't have to be.

Let's put this clearly: You claim that the only way to be humane is to be a humanist. I deny that."

I did not say that either. Please read carefully. DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

Beast FCD

BEAST FCD said...

Only uneducated, stupid fools need imaginary deities given to them from ages past to teach them what is right and wrong.

Humanists don't need them. Hence, we are superior in the realm of ethics.

Beast FCD

PuritanReformed said...

>I did not say that either.

Oh, then you are saying that anytime a person is acting humane, he is a humanists whether he knows it or not?

Regardless, I have enough for this thread. When I have the time to write one post on Secular Humanism, I will destroy it like the false empty philosophy it is.

BEAST FCD said...

And I will, as usual, defeat you utterly and thoroughly.

As they say in Chinese:

"Bai jun zi Jiang".

Beast FCD

BEAST FCD said...

If you need God to teach you how to treat others right, you are pathetic.You need a moral authority to teach you what to do, and when the moral authority, such as the bible, screws up, you screw up too. Just take a look at your own disgusting behavior. Good enough example.You are as bad as the God you worship.

If you have the humaneness to treat others right, you are a normal person who probably knows how to get along well with others.

Beast FCD

quirK said...

Beast, everybody sees that you are certainly very humane. I have learnt that it is humane and reasonable to insult people to their faces.

You are an epitome of Secular Humanism. Everybody else will do very well to learn from your example!

Munchy said...

Beast

You call yourself atheist, that there is no God, and therefore you do not reject God because there is nothing to reject

Jesus walked on earth about 2000 years ago. Do you consider Jesus the Son of God, a liar, a lunatic, or something else, like maybe just a moral teacher? All the evidence concerning the life of Jesus demands a verdict. There is no excuse. If you consider Jesus anything other than the Son of God, you reject Jesus.

In your own mind even if you do not think you have rejected God. I think its clear enough that you reject Jesus.

For us, anyone who rejects Jesus rejects God. On this basis, we Christians claim that you reject God.

PuritanReformed said...

Munchy and quirK:

Thanks. I am most appreciative of your responses. I tend to have a sharp tongue which may not be helpful especially when misused, so when others help along, I am most relieved that my more loving Christian brothers can show me how to better handle the situation.

Munchy said...

Daniel

Yeah its tough, I too am trying and learning to control my tongue.

quirK said...

When it boils down to real-life situations like this, Jesus telling us to "turn the other cheek" is there for us to obey.

I guess we all have pretty sharp tongues and have, in the past, used them to defend our own names and egos, so the danger now is that we flout Prov. 26:4-5 because of a carnal instinct (hot-headedness).

At this point, I think you are very blessed by God indeed to be able to apply your knowledge in biology and reasoning to apologetics, and to even have unbelievers (prebelievers? =) come knocking on your blog's door demanding showdowns.

Regarding using historical evidence to prove God, I have this article from AiG:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2009/04/15/impropriety-evidentially-arguing-resurrection

It is most likely not new to you and Munchy, but it is certainly a reminder that only God can soften hearts, because the root problem is not intellectual, but moral.

I certainly also need to learn from the advice I just gave!

BEAST FCD said...
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Munchy said...

Beast, I snort with contempt at your calling Jesus "pusillanimous". On what basis do you do so, Id really like to hear.

I quote your unfavourable view of Daniel:
"If you need God to teach you how to treat others right, you are pathetic."
"Just take a look at your own disgusting behavior."

Yet you justify insulting people in their faces and pride on your sharp tongue which is by no means a compliment.
"Daniel started it. I merely return the favor."

Beast, based on this I take it you tend to stoop down to the level (or worse) of people you despise? How does that make you any better than them? I fail to see how your 'enlightened humanist' ways make you morally superior to everyone else

BEAST FCD said...
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Munchy said...

None of what u just described fits the adjective 'pusillanimous'. I dont know what dictionary you are using.

You obviously know enough of scriptures to poke fun at Jesus via your (twisted) personal interpretations of scripture. But unfortunately your application of it is confined to cherry picking verses and phrases out of context to disparage the bible. You are either completely ignorant of biblical context, or fully aware of it but choosing to disregard it.

I wonder if you have ever read through any of the 4 gospels in its entirety before, as opposed to picking incidents in isolation to make sense (or nonsense) of them

BEAST FCD said...
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Munchy said...

Well it still doesnt fit. Christians are called to be meek, not to be timid or lack courage. Jesus did not lack courage

I dunno what gnostic gospels you are talking about. I am refering to the gospels found in the New Testament. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.

If you want to poke (fair) holes in Christianity, I strongly recommend you read them again. It doesnt seem right to me to pick holes in something you are not familiar with, that you only remember in some vague memory. If you read them in full and understand them, criticize them all you want. But if you are fuzzy about the details, pls refrain from criticizing it.

I dunno what your church did or did not do to you. But I find it very sad when churches and christians do not conduct themselves in line with the God's commandments, and this may have been the case with you. I hope that God places someone or something in your life to draw you back to Him. If it helps in any way, Daniel himself was ostracized by his church and left his church. But instead of blaming God for what happened and rejecting Christianity, he continues to attempt to follow God. (i garner this from his online testimony)

PuritanReformed said...

Beast FCD:

consider this your second warning of your constant violation of rule number 1. You can take your "higher" ethics with you, which evidently is more in line with gutter morality.

BEAST FCD said...
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PuritanReformed said...

Beast FCD:

stop acting like a cry baby! The objective rules are there for all to see, and they apply to all impersonally. You are just like the thief who complains of being discriminated against because he steals something and is being arrested.