This is a post specifically regarding Munchy's comments on TD Jakes. This is what he said:
ok i agree that manifestations is not a good word used to describe the trinity.. but the church statement does not just end there, it also talks about Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit in subsequent paragraphs. That's why although "manifestations" seems a wrong word to use, the subsequent paragraphs do clarify the issue. And I am definitely not prepared to call someone a heretic based on one word alone!
Manifestation is just "not a good word"? The church statement talks about Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit and therefore the subsequent paragraphs clarify the issue? Let us analyze this in detail:
The word 'manifestation' when stated to define the Trinity has historically been associated with the Sabellian or modalist heresy in Church history[1]. It has been resurrected by the Oneness Pentecostal cult, of which the United Pentecostal Church constitutes TD Jakes' background[2]. So what does the word manifestation mean?
The word manifestation, when used to describe the relation between God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, simply say that God was God the Father in creation. Then, at the Incarnation, part of God the Father 'morph' into God the Son in Jesus Christ. Following his death, God's spirit, which 'morph' to become God the Holy Spirit, came down from heaven to be present on this world.
Therefore, the word 'manifestation' is NOT just 'not a good word to use', anymore than the word 'evil' is NOT just 'not a good word to use' to describe God. T.D. Jakes denies the Trinity and thus blasphemes God[3]. As such, he is not a Christian and needs to repent of his errors and turn to the Lord Jesus Christ who is the second person of the Trinity, not the 'Jesus' of his own making.
Now, we can look at the other aspects of Jakes' belief statement as stated on his church's website[4]. We can then see whether, as Munchy says, 'subsequent paragraphs clarify the issue'.
Let's look at the 'fuller description of Jakes' doctrine of God':
God — There is one God, Creator of all things, infinitely perfect, and eternally existing in three Manifestations: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Jesus Christ — Jesus Christ is true God and true man, having been conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He died on the cross, the complete and final sacrifice for our sins according to the Scriptures. Further, He arose bodily from the dead, ascended into heaven, where, at the right hand of the Majesty on High, He is now our High Priest and Advocate.
The Holy Spirit — The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ and during this age, to convict men of sin, regenerate the believing sinner, indwell, guide, instruct, and empower the believer for godly living and service.
Well, I don't think I see any clarifying or modifying of his basic thesis regarding the oneness of God manifested in three different forms in the Bible. None of what Jakes says here change or alter (or 'clarify')his Sabellian heresy. In fact, judging by his association with the apostate Higher Ground Always Abounding Assembly which similarly embrace the Sabellian heresy, I shouldn't be surprised by his embrace of the modalist error[5].
Oh, regarding the condemning of people as heretics because of one word, I would like to put forward the same counter-example as stated above. If I said that God is evil, am I a heretic? If I say that Jesus became a sinner at the Cross, am I a heretic? Notice that they both revolve around single words: 'evil' and 'sinner'. I guess my point is proved by now.
References:
[1] The Trinity, the Definition of Chalcedon, and Oneness Theology (http://www.aomin.org/CHALC.html)
[2] About T.D. Jakes (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/j11.html)
[3] See also my friend Wenxian's similar post here: Proof of TD Jakes' denial of the Trinity (http://tanboonhian.blogspot.com/2006/05/proof-of-td-jakes-denial-of-trinity.html)
[4] The Potter's House: Belief Statement (http://www.thepottershouse.org/PH_beliefs.html)
[5] For other heresies embraced by T.D. Jakes, see "Get ready" for T.D. Jakes - The Velcro Bishop at http://www.pfo.org/jakes.html
ah i did not see this post before posting the response that i did this morning. at least there are links here that are more conclusive about the type of person this TD Jakes is (compared to the earlier ones i saw). Although its like link here link there I also blur already... (but still with customary caution, im constantly aware that internet is full of nonsense and I always like to check sources carefully)
ReplyDeleteBut still, i went to GDOP, its fine what. We sing song, pray for Singapore, pray for ourselves, blah blah... nothing disturbing about the event seriously. If the advertisment video happens to have a dubious character in it so be it. There was no Ed Silvoso or TD Jakes on stage at the National Stadium that day. I can assure you God indeed was glorified that night
and i would still go to GDOP again if i am free, and would encourage pple to go as well.
ReplyDeleteUnless of course the GDOP becomes like another FOP farce, I would think twice b4 going (FOP was still fine the last time i went many years back now its like highjack by CHC, maybe ill go FOP again in a few years time to check it out)
Oh ya.. vcf has anntic camp in december, why dont you check it out if you are free? i wont be attending this year though.
Sigh...
ReplyDeleteI am not concerned with what the GDOP Singapore committee did or didn't do at this year's GDOP event itself. I am concerned with the affiliations, and also the background of the entire event itself. Don't you know that we are called to be seperate from the things that are detestable to God? The GDOP event in Singapore may be good, but the worldview behind the event itself and also the way the events as held in many countries is totaly deplorable. By linking itself to the GDOP movement worldwide, the GDOP Singaopre leaders are behaving exactly like the godly King Jehosaphat in allying with the wicked Ahab. Does God approve of such compromise, do you think? Read 2 Chron. 19:2-3 which is applicable for the GDOP committee members, all of them.
Oh,
ReplyDeleteand I wouldn't be going for VCF's anntic camp. Crusade has the Metamorphosis student conference which I would go if I decided to go for camps. Anyway, I am too busy with a lot of things, including my honors project.
oh ya the "manifestations" word used on the church site ah. As one of the sites mentioned the church statement is toned down a lot, and prob cuz of that I still think that the church statement is fairly reasonable.
ReplyDeleteFor eg. I might say that there is one God, this God is a triune God, and exists as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. And each of these are manifested to us differently from one another. And so the church statement could still be taken to be a loosely worded form of something like what I just described. Which is why I do not think that the statement itself is a convincing argument
"manifestations" is obviously not the same word as "evil", so i disagree with your use of the word "evil" in the counterexample you use. To me the "manifestation" examples and the "evil" examples are not analagous to one another.
Munchy, you are totally disregarding the meaning of the word 'manifestation' as used in its theological context. That's all I have to say.
ReplyDeleteim not trying to defend the TD Jakes' church theology. im jus trying to say that the church statement ITSELF would not be sufficient to convince myself and most other pple that there is something wrong with that particular church.
ReplyDeleteanyway.. hmm..if GDOP Singapore's affiliations bother you that much such that in your opinion they are helping the wicked and love those who hate the LORD (2 Chr 19:2-3) then it brings to mind Campus Crusade itself.
Recently, my church and another church and other leaders were at this gathering where the main event was that Rick Warren gave a speech to exhort pastors. This was followed by a handing over and appointment ceremony for the new director of Campus Crusade Singapore. (The former one was from my church, and so are several current CC staffworkers). If affliations bother you that much about GDOP, then how about this one? (since CC has no qualms about associating with Rick Warren)
No what do I want you to take action and scorn CC cuz of this? No! Do I want you to look at CC any less than you formerly did because of this? No! Please dont.
P.S. if u attended the past 2 years Meta camps, the sec school kids that u see joining you guys are from my church. Cuz the guy in charge of those youths was also the former CC director mah, so the CC community in my church made it very convenient to let to youths latch on to Meta camp.
Munchy:
ReplyDeleteI DO know about Campus Crusade's affiliations, maybe more than you even. And I do know about Bethesda Frankel Estate's youth joining us for the Meta campus. In fact, I was given the responsibility of being a Meta CG leader before when some of your church's youth were present. I also do know about Cruade's compromise with Rick Warren. In fact, it doesn't require a rocket scientist to have this figured out since the publication of the Purpose Driven Life in Singapore was done by Crusade Mass Media Asia Ltd.
Now, how do I 'cope' with such compromise in my backyard? For now, what I do is that I seperate the different ministries of Campus Crusade. Since I am only in the Campus ministry as a student, as long as the NUS campus ministry itself does not compromise, I will keep my peace as a student. However, I have mailed Mr. Chen Huilin, Director of Crusade Mass Media,regarding his blatent compromise. Just so you know, I do not practice double standards. Compromise on my 'home turf' is also not tolerated. I have gone on record, and my friends and the staff in Crusade know, that I am strongly opposed to all things Warren; they know my stand. As for Mr. Chen Huilin, I am not 'short-changing' him one bit. If he does not repents soon, I am going to write him a nice open letter exposing the compromise of Mass Media ministry.